Matasano Chargen - Latest Comments in Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Jim Hoagland — Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0000

BTW, there is a new edition of this paper:
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/reference/Vist...

Enjoy,

Jim

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

ivan — Sat, 29 Jul 2006 02:09:45 -0000

Dino: good point but i dont buy it. I've seen pre-beta code for a quite complex and comprehensive system from the same vendor several years ago (the .NET framework) and its overall security maturity seemed better (ie. it was not vulnerable to trivial well-known attacks identified through black-box testing). They are suppossed to be way better than what they were in 2000/2001 right?.
That being said, there's also an important difference: given the current emphasis on security MSFT can now afford to delay shipping the new stack until they get it right, and that important because they will eventually get it right

Then again, in the words of Mr. Biafra: "right guard will not help you here..." prefix/prefast/etc and general purpose static and dynamic analisis tools will not uncover the obscure bugs, you need someone that understands the complexities of the protocol's state-machines and the security assumptions being made.

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Thomas Ptacek — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:38:46 -0000

My guess is that if Jim Hoaglund had an absolutely foolproof plan to boost SYMC earnings by 40%, along with a mathematical proof and a PowerPoint deck with the most kick-ass animated pie chart slide ever, Symantec still would not be capable of capitalizing on it.

The problem with these "SYMC uses vulnerability research to terrorize the market" stories --- well, along with the fact that it's a stupid idea --- is that it attributes much too much cleverness to Symantec upper management.

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Jim Hoagland — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:17:21 -0000

(Re: the nonsense "Symantec Spreading Vista FUD To Manipulate Stock Price")

> And, it looks like I was right: Symantec *IS*
> trying to use old and already-corrected Vista
> flaws to bolster investor confidence in its
> product lines ahead of disappointing earnings.

Indeed, earnings were so disappointing that the stock price rose about 10% after the announcement. :)

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Jim Hoagland — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:03:03 -0000

BTW, for the paper, we didn't look for any new bugs in the 5384 build. We only looked if the known ones had been fixed.

I do think it is commendable that Microsoft has spent quite a bit of effort testing it for bugs.

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Jim Hoagland — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:26:53 -0000

Hello. It's nice to find some intellegent discussion about the paper.

Really in the paper we were mainly just sharing what we had found out when took a look at Vista networking. Oliver Friedrichs introduces tha paper well in this blog post, which could be regarded as a foreword to the paper:
http://www.symantec.com/enterprise/security_res...

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Dino — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 16:00:28 -0000

This just in: Serious security bugs found in uncommited code on developer's hard drive!

Security improvements, like performance improvements, are iterative improvements. After a module is functional, you do performance and security testing and improve both in iterative cycles until release. You can't get either perfect, so you just expend the amount of resources that you deem appropriate. The version of the stack that Symanted first looked at appears to have been very early in the review/improve cycle.

I think MS should have done some security reviews and testing before the Beta 1 release, but people also need to remember that Beta 1 was released about a year prior to the planned Vista release. Does anyone honestly believe that a TCP/IP stack that can be blue screened with ISIC had received even a cursory security review?

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Josh Daymont — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:51:44 -0000

Ivan is probably right in regards to this being a bad sign for the new Vista ip stack. I reskimmed the paper and didn't find the issue of techniques specifically addressed, but most of the language around discovered vulnerabilities indicates that this research did not include any binary analysis of the stack, but instead was limited to testing it through simlpy remotely pentesting the box. If this is the case and then there will definitely be lots of interesting problems lurking behind the scenses, and if microsoft doesn't have some qualified vulnerability researchers do a binary or code based analysis of the stack before release, well then you can bet your bottom dollar the intruder community will find some 0day when they do just such a thing post release.

Of course maybe this is just what symantec wants us to think, the two companies aren't known for cooperating, and microsoft has become one of the most aggressive vendors in the world when it comes to hiring external vulnerability researchers to review code. I'd be really surprised if mister softy would ship a new module like this without an external review. If that's what they were planning than perhaps someone there will read this comment and think twice?

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

ivan — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 20:27:49 -0000

ok, there are two ways of interpreting this:
1- the bugs are not so important and where or are being fixed, security has improved, no big deal;
or
2- these bugs hint at an inmature IP stack (security-wise), be careful because more (and more serious) bugs may pop up in the future.

Really... its 2006 and if you developed an TCP/IP stack from scratch that is vulnerable to land/blat/opentear and a zero-lenght IP option DOS after 2 betas, the signs are not reassuring.
I believe that is the rationale behind the conclusions in the paper

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Dave G. — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:33:40 -0000

My bad! Paper is available at:

http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/reference/ATR-...

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Josh Daymont — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 12:56:31 -0000

Sequential ip ids is not a 'flaw' but not being able to toggle between sequential and secure random id's via a configuration setting is.

Where is the paper? Tim's stuff is always the best.

Re: Symantec Paper Validates Trustworthy Computing?

Steven — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 12:52:30 -0000

Is the paper publicly available?